It's just spite. I've been dealing with these people since before I became a Catholic in 1977. I grew up in the American Lutheran Church, later blended into the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. That's Tim Walz' church, and the people like him took over totally. They all have rainbow flags outside. They went pro-abort in the early 1970s, which is why I left, before finding the Faith. Despite our problems in the Catholic Church, at least we're fighting. They also wrecked their beautiful liturgy, based on Luther's hymns and Bach, for with-it songs and hideous music. The church I grew up in back in Michigan dissolved and the structure now is a mosque. The Catholic Church will recover when not just the past 60 years, but 75 years, are reversed. Thank you for your work.
Thank you, John. I rejoice every time I hear about a Catholic convert who sees the problems but remains faithful nonetheless. This is what we have to do, so that when the dust settles, there are some believers still left standing! "When the Son of Man returns, will He find faith on the earth?" Yes, please God, He will!
You're welcome. I've known so many Catholics who have abandoned the Faith, whether from the scandals or indifference. This is even though I live in one of the best dioceses in the country, Orange in California. Bishop Vann is quite good. We have the great Norbertine monks, overflowing with orders, who say the Traditional Latin Mass in the one place left us, St. John the Baptist, 15 min. from where I live. It's overflowing, the women dress nicely with veils and numerous children scurry around. The diocese also has many vocations, especially from Vietnamese families, whose priests are about 90% excellent. Because of their history of torture and murder by the Hanoi communists, they have no fantasies about communism or leftism in general, unlike a certain Argentine. Most of the Novos Ordo Masses are said as reverently as possible, albeit with hideous music. It's as good as it gets here, yet people still leave for the Evangelicals or nothing.
Ah, yes, the great Orange diocese, and the great Norbertines! Hope for the future.
I imagine then you also get to go sometimes to the gigantic orchestral Masses put on by Brian Roach. I'd love to go, but Nebraska is much too far away...
Regarding your last comment: a friend of mine once said: "Modernity is like a giant black hole that sucks everything towards it, even light. So to escape it you have to be intentional about adhering to Divine Power. Otherwise, sucked in you'll be." That's what we see.
I think it is because they no longer believe in the Real Presence. When you go to the TLM. the Real Presence pervades the entire Mass, particularly the Offertory and the Roman canon. It is "in your face" so to speak. With the NO you can pretty well skirt around it with its non-offertory Offertory and especially if the priest says the "quickie" so called Second Eucharistic Prayer.
Martin Luther (who removed the Offertory entirely and reduced the Roman Canon to almost nothing) lost his faith entirely because he no longer believed in the Real Presence. Thomas Cranmer introduced the priest facing the people with the liturgy in the vernacular and Communion in the hand. He did that for one reason only - to destroy the faithful's belief in the Real Presence because he no longer believed in it himself.
So modern day church men have gone down the same road but they like the comfortable life and whatever fading prestige still comes their way. Joseph Shaw expresses it very eloquently in his "The Liturgy, the Family & the Crisis of Modernity". Readers should do themselves a favour and buy a copy of the book (available from Os Justi Press) and read page 15 under title Progressives and Conservatives. It is an enjoyable read and I go to it often.
But sadly, the capacity for self-deception in man is almost endless. Many of the churchmen you speak of have lost what Newman calls "real assent," but they continue to profess a "notional assent": they SAY they believe in the real presence, even though their actions belie it (for no one would behave toward even a mere earthly ruler in the way they behave toward the ruler of all). And for a rationalist, notional assent might be taken as sufficient, even though it isn't.
Your remarks about "conservative" Catholics are spot-on. The conservatives (so-called) are the ones that baffle me the most, and I know some. They are undoubtedly faithful, and have persevered through years of whiplash-inducing changes, good priests followed by manifestly bad priests, and the wretched music. And yet the ones I know are quite opposed to the trads, even if it is a diocesan priest who offers the TLM. I recently attended an NO Mass, the first in about five years. It was for Ash Wednesday because "my" chapel only had a 6 pm Mass that day. My territorial parish church is only a ten minute walk away, but the psychic and spiritual distance is vast. I once again cringed as the old folks flashed around the hippie peace sign at the peace spot in the Mass. I don't know what is in the hearts of the Mass-goers I saw, but in ten years time they will mostly be departed into eternity and all the local churches will be empty. But our church leaders (as well as local civic leaders) have no answers. HINT: Children, and more than one per couple. Finally, at the traditional Mass I am not treated like a lowest common denominator infantile "good" person, but as a child of God and the Church in need of grace and salvation.
In fact, as I have said countless times, there's more in common between any two traditional liturgical rites, Eastern or Western, than there is between the TLM and the NOM. It is a different world; a different... religion, in many ways (especially if you take religion to mean the sum total of bodily and spiritual attitudes that we bring to the worship of almighty God, which is its first and essential meaning).
Yes. Given my years in Eastern Orthodoxy, your insight rings true. The widespread restoration of the traditional liturgy (Mass + Office) would promote true ecumenical understanding and remove one sometimes-justified critique from the East when they see our liturgical deformations. No one can mistake the theological kinship of a Missa Cantata or Solemn High Mass and the Divine Liturgy. At the very least an honest Orthodox observer would have to concede that point, even if not on others.
Right. And you recall my series on my trip to Greece & Turkey, where I pointed out that our Greek Orthodox guide was profoundly moved by watching our daily Missae Cantatae. She said she had no idea Catholics could worship that way. How sad that this was her general impression, but how fortunate that she got to travel with a TLM group!
I recently read a book titled "The Plot Against the Church", published by St Anthony Press in 1962 and is also currently available at Omnia Veritas LTD. The author is Maurice Pinay which is a pen name for several Cardinals that contributed to its writing and publication. It concerns the infiltration of the Church by Masons, Communists and Jews with the main focus being the Jewish aspect, in order to destroy the Church. Pope Francis seems to me to fit into this plot as described in the book. Are you familiar with this book? If not I would love to get your opinion. It is very well researched and documented. It was eye opening to say the least and a compelling read.
I am not familiar with it, but I have read many things that go along similar lines, and at this point, nothing would surprise me. But I think the influence of Modernism, and its weaker twin, accommodationism to moderniy, account for a great deal of what we are seeing.
The book deals with the methods of insertion into the priesthood by men who profess to be Catholic, outwardly make a show of practicing the faith, but inwardly and secretly are faithful Jews. The intent is to destroy the Church from within by working their way up through the hierarchy to the highest levels, whereby they can have the greatest influence in order to achieve their goal. One example is by reaching high enough levels,and that includes a few popes, they can control who gets accepted into seminarys in order to increase the acceptance of Jewish men and continue their program of deception and destruction. It is an insidious approach to say the least. Modernism is definitely one ideology used to advance their goal. If you have other related titles I would be interested. Thanks.
" I watch them take care to move gracefully and naturally, for I too must glorify God in my body." My sister and I had many fortunate experiences of attending holy and reverent (Novus Ordo) Masses celebrated by priests of the Missionaries of The Most Holy Eucharist held at The Immaculate Conception Seminary in Huntington, NY, sad to say, more than a decade ago. We marveled as we watched this holy, young priest wipe out the chalice, so slowly, so carefully, so respectfully, so full of love was he - this sacred cleansing lasted about 20 minutes. It was the reverence of these Masses that drew me back to this gorgeous gift of faith, and now am a happy attendee at the TLM.
IMNSHO, the TLM ( and all that it represents) issue IS THE BIGGEST 'FISH' - on 'Rome's agenda - period.
If the 'other problems' don't get addressed or even mentioned, it is safe to conclude that they are not considered a 'problem', but rather represent the desired state of affairs.
These are a 'problem' ONLY from the Traditional perspective, not from the current 'Roman Hierarchy's' perspective.
2) FWIW and because
a)this issue has been on my mind for some time and
b) even though I do not follow any other trad commentators with any regularity - but read some comments often enough to get a sense of the author's focus & direction:
All the commentators I am aware of seem to look at the TLM issue through the microscope of VAT II, not in light and scope of Genesis 3:15
The TLM issue is not an isolated battle in the war against God's Plan.
In my own experience, one of the reasons the TLM is so powerful is it is utterly True. Truth convicts and demands a response: convert and repent or remain in the lie. It’s one or the other and it’s a scary thing to face. Choosing the Truth can be very painful and uncomfortable…for a time. Perseverance in the Truth leads only to freedom. Sadly, it seems that most people today can’t deal with pain and suffering and will avoid it at any cost. In this case the price is too high. It’s nothing less than eternal damnation.
It's just spite. I've been dealing with these people since before I became a Catholic in 1977. I grew up in the American Lutheran Church, later blended into the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. That's Tim Walz' church, and the people like him took over totally. They all have rainbow flags outside. They went pro-abort in the early 1970s, which is why I left, before finding the Faith. Despite our problems in the Catholic Church, at least we're fighting. They also wrecked their beautiful liturgy, based on Luther's hymns and Bach, for with-it songs and hideous music. The church I grew up in back in Michigan dissolved and the structure now is a mosque. The Catholic Church will recover when not just the past 60 years, but 75 years, are reversed. Thank you for your work.
Thank you, John. I rejoice every time I hear about a Catholic convert who sees the problems but remains faithful nonetheless. This is what we have to do, so that when the dust settles, there are some believers still left standing! "When the Son of Man returns, will He find faith on the earth?" Yes, please God, He will!
You're welcome. I've known so many Catholics who have abandoned the Faith, whether from the scandals or indifference. This is even though I live in one of the best dioceses in the country, Orange in California. Bishop Vann is quite good. We have the great Norbertine monks, overflowing with orders, who say the Traditional Latin Mass in the one place left us, St. John the Baptist, 15 min. from where I live. It's overflowing, the women dress nicely with veils and numerous children scurry around. The diocese also has many vocations, especially from Vietnamese families, whose priests are about 90% excellent. Because of their history of torture and murder by the Hanoi communists, they have no fantasies about communism or leftism in general, unlike a certain Argentine. Most of the Novos Ordo Masses are said as reverently as possible, albeit with hideous music. It's as good as it gets here, yet people still leave for the Evangelicals or nothing.
Ah, yes, the great Orange diocese, and the great Norbertines! Hope for the future.
I imagine then you also get to go sometimes to the gigantic orchestral Masses put on by Brian Roach. I'd love to go, but Nebraska is much too far away...
Regarding your last comment: a friend of mine once said: "Modernity is like a giant black hole that sucks everything towards it, even light. So to escape it you have to be intentional about adhering to Divine Power. Otherwise, sucked in you'll be." That's what we see.
Well done. I was "drawn in" to this very article and lost track of a little time.
I think it is because they no longer believe in the Real Presence. When you go to the TLM. the Real Presence pervades the entire Mass, particularly the Offertory and the Roman canon. It is "in your face" so to speak. With the NO you can pretty well skirt around it with its non-offertory Offertory and especially if the priest says the "quickie" so called Second Eucharistic Prayer.
Martin Luther (who removed the Offertory entirely and reduced the Roman Canon to almost nothing) lost his faith entirely because he no longer believed in the Real Presence. Thomas Cranmer introduced the priest facing the people with the liturgy in the vernacular and Communion in the hand. He did that for one reason only - to destroy the faithful's belief in the Real Presence because he no longer believed in it himself.
So modern day church men have gone down the same road but they like the comfortable life and whatever fading prestige still comes their way. Joseph Shaw expresses it very eloquently in his "The Liturgy, the Family & the Crisis of Modernity". Readers should do themselves a favour and buy a copy of the book (available from Os Justi Press) and read page 15 under title Progressives and Conservatives. It is an enjoyable read and I go to it often.
I quite agree.
But sadly, the capacity for self-deception in man is almost endless. Many of the churchmen you speak of have lost what Newman calls "real assent," but they continue to profess a "notional assent": they SAY they believe in the real presence, even though their actions belie it (for no one would behave toward even a mere earthly ruler in the way they behave toward the ruler of all). And for a rationalist, notional assent might be taken as sufficient, even though it isn't.
Your remarks about "conservative" Catholics are spot-on. The conservatives (so-called) are the ones that baffle me the most, and I know some. They are undoubtedly faithful, and have persevered through years of whiplash-inducing changes, good priests followed by manifestly bad priests, and the wretched music. And yet the ones I know are quite opposed to the trads, even if it is a diocesan priest who offers the TLM. I recently attended an NO Mass, the first in about five years. It was for Ash Wednesday because "my" chapel only had a 6 pm Mass that day. My territorial parish church is only a ten minute walk away, but the psychic and spiritual distance is vast. I once again cringed as the old folks flashed around the hippie peace sign at the peace spot in the Mass. I don't know what is in the hearts of the Mass-goers I saw, but in ten years time they will mostly be departed into eternity and all the local churches will be empty. But our church leaders (as well as local civic leaders) have no answers. HINT: Children, and more than one per couple. Finally, at the traditional Mass I am not treated like a lowest common denominator infantile "good" person, but as a child of God and the Church in need of grace and salvation.
Absolutely true, Greg!
In fact, as I have said countless times, there's more in common between any two traditional liturgical rites, Eastern or Western, than there is between the TLM and the NOM. It is a different world; a different... religion, in many ways (especially if you take religion to mean the sum total of bodily and spiritual attitudes that we bring to the worship of almighty God, which is its first and essential meaning).
Yes. Given my years in Eastern Orthodoxy, your insight rings true. The widespread restoration of the traditional liturgy (Mass + Office) would promote true ecumenical understanding and remove one sometimes-justified critique from the East when they see our liturgical deformations. No one can mistake the theological kinship of a Missa Cantata or Solemn High Mass and the Divine Liturgy. At the very least an honest Orthodox observer would have to concede that point, even if not on others.
Right. And you recall my series on my trip to Greece & Turkey, where I pointed out that our Greek Orthodox guide was profoundly moved by watching our daily Missae Cantatae. She said she had no idea Catholics could worship that way. How sad that this was her general impression, but how fortunate that she got to travel with a TLM group!
I recently read a book titled "The Plot Against the Church", published by St Anthony Press in 1962 and is also currently available at Omnia Veritas LTD. The author is Maurice Pinay which is a pen name for several Cardinals that contributed to its writing and publication. It concerns the infiltration of the Church by Masons, Communists and Jews with the main focus being the Jewish aspect, in order to destroy the Church. Pope Francis seems to me to fit into this plot as described in the book. Are you familiar with this book? If not I would love to get your opinion. It is very well researched and documented. It was eye opening to say the least and a compelling read.
I am not familiar with it, but I have read many things that go along similar lines, and at this point, nothing would surprise me. But I think the influence of Modernism, and its weaker twin, accommodationism to moderniy, account for a great deal of what we are seeing.
The book deals with the methods of insertion into the priesthood by men who profess to be Catholic, outwardly make a show of practicing the faith, but inwardly and secretly are faithful Jews. The intent is to destroy the Church from within by working their way up through the hierarchy to the highest levels, whereby they can have the greatest influence in order to achieve their goal. One example is by reaching high enough levels,and that includes a few popes, they can control who gets accepted into seminarys in order to increase the acceptance of Jewish men and continue their program of deception and destruction. It is an insidious approach to say the least. Modernism is definitely one ideology used to advance their goal. If you have other related titles I would be interested. Thanks.
Graber's Athanasius and the Church of Our Time
Murr's Murder in the 33rd Degree
Meloni's St Gallen Mafia
Martin's Windswept House
Dillon's The War of the Antichrist
There are more but these are some heavy-hitters.
" I watch them take care to move gracefully and naturally, for I too must glorify God in my body." My sister and I had many fortunate experiences of attending holy and reverent (Novus Ordo) Masses celebrated by priests of the Missionaries of The Most Holy Eucharist held at The Immaculate Conception Seminary in Huntington, NY, sad to say, more than a decade ago. We marveled as we watched this holy, young priest wipe out the chalice, so slowly, so carefully, so respectfully, so full of love was he - this sacred cleansing lasted about 20 minutes. It was the reverence of these Masses that drew me back to this gorgeous gift of faith, and now am a happy attendee at the TLM.
1) Re: But doesn’t he have bigger fish to fry?
IMNSHO, the TLM ( and all that it represents) issue IS THE BIGGEST 'FISH' - on 'Rome's agenda - period.
If the 'other problems' don't get addressed or even mentioned, it is safe to conclude that they are not considered a 'problem', but rather represent the desired state of affairs.
These are a 'problem' ONLY from the Traditional perspective, not from the current 'Roman Hierarchy's' perspective.
2) FWIW and because
a)this issue has been on my mind for some time and
b) even though I do not follow any other trad commentators with any regularity - but read some comments often enough to get a sense of the author's focus & direction:
All the commentators I am aware of seem to look at the TLM issue through the microscope of VAT II, not in light and scope of Genesis 3:15
The TLM issue is not an isolated battle in the war against God's Plan.
Agree 100%.
In my own experience, one of the reasons the TLM is so powerful is it is utterly True. Truth convicts and demands a response: convert and repent or remain in the lie. It’s one or the other and it’s a scary thing to face. Choosing the Truth can be very painful and uncomfortable…for a time. Perseverance in the Truth leads only to freedom. Sadly, it seems that most people today can’t deal with pain and suffering and will avoid it at any cost. In this case the price is too high. It’s nothing less than eternal damnation.